Child Safety Interview 13th March 2013
OK Folks please come through.
CS Gaynor: speaking to Neville Abbey “My information is that as a support person you are
not to make comment OK?
NEVILLE: No I understand that
ARTHUR: Support person basically
CC Gaynor: As a support person you remember that the information remains confidential.
CS Gaynor: I am also aware that you have been here before.
CS Gaynor: So its OK if I talk in front of this gentleman. ARTHUR: Of course
CS Gaynor: You have been here before and you have given us information. My role is to take current Information OK? Because if you have provided us with information before we can’t go over old information so I want new information.
ARTHUR: That’s the reason why we are here today
CS Gaynor: Beautiful. So it’s about your grandchildren?
CPIU Gaynor: Two little girls?
CS Gaynor: OK I understand is it Isabella?ARTHUR: Isabella and Bronte Watter.
CS Gaynor: Is it double T?
ARTHUR: Yes double T
CS Gaynor: Alright, now what is your current information? So it should be new information
That we haven’t received before.
ARTHUR: We have never been interviewed before by Child Safety.
CS Gaynor: I’m not interviewing you, you’re bringing me information.
ARTHUR: Well we have attempted on many occasions to give you information and we
have been unsuccessful.
CS Gaynor: OK You understand that to provide us with information all you need to do is call us on intake line and you can provide us information at any time.
ARTHUR: Did you see the information I brought in the other day about the way we have
tried to contact you and the CPIU?
CS Gaynor: Ah! No! That’s OK. I haven’t all the information because somebody else would’ve already taken that wouldn’t they?
ARTHUR: It’s very relevant.
CS Gaynor: So you’ve already documented what you are saying to me now?
ARTHUR: They weren’t documented I just gave them the information documents
CS Gaynor: I can give you a phone number. Did you get the phone number for our intake
ARTHUR: No I didn’t.
CS Gaynor: I’ll give you that number and give you a card if you want or write 1300706147. Right?
CS Gaynor: That’s Child Safety intake and if it busy at that particular time it will overflow to
another regional intake, but there will always be an intake. OK? So it will be an
ARTHUR: No problem.
CS Gaynor: So what is your current information for intake today?
ARTHUR: Well it goes back to 8th October 2011.
CS Gaynor: Have you given that information already?
CS Gaynor: So what did you give them when you came in the other day when you said you
ARTHUR: Well I gave them information about nothing relevant to what’s happening here.
The file’s there why don’t you go and grab it. I asked for a copy actually.
CS Gaynor: I need to know, we can’t provide any information that we are given OK? Once
we receive information it’s confidential.
CS Gaynor: It’s under government procedure and legislation its confidential OK? So we cannot give that information back out to anybody.
ARTHUR: Not even ourselves?
CS Gaynor: Not even yourself. If you ring up again and say I just rang up the other day I would not tell you what was said or what you provided us with. Confidential is adhered to. You have to go through the right intake again and that’s policy.
I can’t break policy. So if you have got current information you haven’t pro-
vided us after the intake then we take it now.
ARTHUR: That’s been our intent to date to talk to Child Safety.
CS Gaynor: But that’s not current information of what you’ve got.
ARTHUR: But we are going back to 2009.
CS Gaynor: No, I am talking about current information that you serve us OK
CS Gaynor: What information you claim in association with the children you are talking about.
CS Gaynor: Even though you have come in here and you have given information last week?
ARTHUR: Nothing about the children.
CS Gaynor: OK. That’s what I’m after. I’m after what your concerns are about the children.
ARTHUR: OK we go back to
CS Gaynor: Your information about trying to contact us has nothing to do with what’s going on with the children.
CS Gaynor: I need to know what the concerns are for the children.
ARTHUR: OK, it’s back to date is 8th October 2011.
CS Gaynor: You have not provided that to us?
ARTHUR: No. No we’ve provided any information to you whatever simply because we haven’t been able to get in contact with you. We have attempted on many occasions. We were at home on that day and people called Sheree and Steven Heilbronn turned up at our home, roughly 3 o’clock in the afternoon.
CS Gaynor: Mm.
ARTHUR: And that was after there had been a separation and the mother and children were living at our home.
CS Gaynor: What mother and children?
ARTHUR: Bronte and Isabella’s mother.
CS Gaynor: And she was living at your home?
CS Gaynor: OK
ARTHUR: And the father had picked the children up and said that he was taking them to the beach.
CS: Have you provided this in any court documents or anything?
CS Gaynor: Why not?
ARTHUR: Well, we can’t talk to anybody.
CS Gaynor: But we are not the family law court.
CS Gaynor: We’re Child Safety and you can ring us up any time and we are open to any organization in the community to ring us.
ARTHUR: In my attempts to talk to Child Safety madam and we’ve tried on many occasions.
CS Gaynor: So you’ve had contact with the Regional Director?
ARTHUR: Mr. Lupe?
CS Gaynor: Yes
ARTHUR: Yes, but couldn’t get an interview. He just said he would let me know what was happening and we’ve got information that’s very relevant to this case.
CS Gaynor: We do many walk in interviews like today. We do interviews.
ARTHUR: Oh yes. We had to make an appointment to be here today.
CS Gaynor: Why did you do that?
ARTHUR: Because I was told to.
CS Gaynor: Because you came in last week and you said you would be back again today.
ARTHUR: No. I said I need an appointment to talk to someone about the children. She said OK.
CS Gaynor: Well that’s fine saying that, but we are available anytime.
CS Gaynor: You use phone calls to the intake service at any time but it’s not up to the original intake that you are here.
ARTHUR: I’ve got to start at the beginning, because you people have no information about our involvement in this case at all.
CS Gaynor: Alright.
ARTHUR: None whatever.CS Gaynor: So, have you been to the police?
ARTHUR: Several occasions and they won’t talk to us either.
CS Gaynor: What do you mean by that? Did they take your information?
ARTHUR: We went to (um I’ve got it here somewhere). No they didn’t take the information.
CS Gaynor: What did you do when you came in last week?
ARTHUR: I gave them information in relation to a disclosure by our daughter. That’s all. Nothing else. Nothing else was discussed. The children weren’t even named.
CS Gaynor: Good
ARTHUR: Now we’ve been to the Police on 20th January 2012, 8th March 2012, 15th March 2012, 4th July 2012 and 1st October 2012. Never been able to, oh no Child Safety, sorry. Those are the dates we attempted to contact you people.
The police 4th October 2012 CPIU in the city. Now we gave them some information. The fellow at the front desk said “You sit down there these people will want to talk to you.
CS Gaynor: Mm Mm
ARTHUR: The fellow came back and said they will be in touch. They never have.
CS Gaynor: Mm Mm
ARTHUR: They never have. 13th October, no it was 15th October 2012, city CPIU again, same thing, will be in touch. They didn’t. 19th October 2012 Kirwan Police Station. We will pass this onto the unit and they will be in touch. And I appreciate that because I don’t know if there is a unit out at Kirwan and then 7th November 2012 Kirwan Police Station the same thing, never got an interview. Then January 13th 2013 I rang up Senior Sergeant David Miles who is the Chief of the CPIU and he refused to take the interview.
CS Gaynor: Does anybody
ARTHUR: We’ve given them a couple of written statements, that’s all.
CS Gaynor: Has anybody else in the family provided information?
ARTHUR: My daughter I would think.
CS Gaynor: Was it the same information?
CS Gaynor: Why?
ARTHUR: Well, I don’t know.
CS Gaynor: What I’m trying to say “Is your information second hand information of first hand information?”
ARTHUR: It involves us. It’s first hand information.
CS Gaynor: You were there?
ARTHUR: Yes, it was in our home.
CS Gaynor: OK. So I’m happy to take what’s first hand information.
CS Gaynor: I don’t need anything that’s not relevant, only first hand information.
ARTHUR: I appreciate that.
CS Gaynor: Because you don’t know if the mother has contacted Child Safety.
ARTHUR: Many occasions I’d say. It’s not discussed.
CS Gaynor: Well then I take your view. So I’m happy to take it. So what’s your first view?
ARTHUR: 8th October 2011 Heilbronns’ turned up at our home on Saturday afternoon about 3 o’clock. Prior to that the father had picked up the children and said that he was taking them to the beach. When the children came home we were all there and they said that they didn’t go to the beach, they went to the Heilbronns’. Daddy and Sheree and Mr. Heilbronns were asking questions about where they’re going to live and that worried us and Cassie. Cassie sent the father and Heilbronn a text “Please don’t involve the children in what’s happening with the breakdown of the marriage. Mr. & Mrs. Heilbronn turned up at our house as I say. We invited them inside. They became very aggressive. There was a very animated conversation and they made it very clear to us that if we didn’t convince Cassie and the girls to return to the family home with Michael immediately, they’d be in touch with the authorities and have the children taken from the mother.
CS Gaynor: Let’s talk about the children.
ARTHUR: No, let’s get the facts. Would you please write that down?
CS Gaynor: What my role is and that we are interested in is the risk to the children and harm
to the children. That’s a conversation you’ve had with another group of people.
But I need to know what the risk is to the children.
ARTHUR: Well, why don’t you listen to what I’ve got to say?
CS Gaynor: Now just hold on.
CS Gaynor: You’re talking about a family law court arrangement OK.
ARTHUR: We’re talking
CS Gaynor: We’re talking about a set of people.
HEATHER: It wasn’t
CS Gaynor: OK we’re talking about a conversation for family law court. It was a family…?
HEATHER: No. These people just came into our home and threatened that if our daughter
didn’t go back to her husband with her children they would make sure that she lost the children.
ARTHUR: They would go to the
HEATHER: The authorities and make sure she lost the children.
CS Gaynor: OK. Did you tell the appropriate authorities this? Because once again Child
Safety wouldn’t be involved.
ARTHUR: They were.
CS Gaynor: Once again there were no children there while it was being discussed with adults
and if you felt threatened you should contact the police. Did you contact the
ARTHUR: We didn’t.
CS Gaynor: Alright, go on.
CS Gaynor: Don’t, don’t get frustrated. Bear with me. I’ve got to perform my role.
ARTHUR: We’re here.
CS Gaynor: My role is, you understand?
ARTHUR: I do.
CS Gaynor: I can’t do a police role.
ARTHUR: I don’t want you to. All we are interested in is these little girls.
CS Gaynor: I can’t deal with Family Law Court, in that it is completely different to what Child
Safety, so I’ve got to do my job as the Child Safety Officer.
ARTHUR: OK. Now these little girls were asleep in the bedroom and the conversation
became very animated and we asked them to go outside, and they refused on
three occasions and the little children woke up screaming.
HEATHER: The mother tried to pacify the children and asked them to leave and they
wouldn’t. They just kept yelling.
ARTHUR: And then they, while they were there they made a statement that Cassie had
been abused by her elder brother on a daily basis for eight years which is about
2, 900 odd times and that if the girls didn’t go back to Cassie, Michael would have them removed from her.
HEATHER: To Michael
ARTHUR: To Michael, they would and they also mentioned about the family violence in the
home against the mother and the children and they said “That’s normal in all
family homes and
HEATHER: And not to take any notice of it.
ARTHUR: When I asked about the support for the children from the father they said “They
should never have left home even though they were being abused. They were
petrified. So then we went to, that was on the Saturday afternoon. We went to
The Family Violence Centre on Monday morning. I took our daughter out and we
took a DVO to cover against the father.
CS Gaynor: Yep
ARTHUR: To cover ourselves and the girls against the Heilbronns’ and Michael, Michael
Watter the father.
CS Gaynor: Um so this is to you the father
ARTHUR: Yes my wife
CS Gaynor: The children?
ARTHUR: Yes, because they were living at our place
CS Gaynor: Yep
ARTHUR: When it got to court, the Heilbronns’ disputed and got their name taken off it and
the DVO was on Michael and it involved Isabella, the mother and ourselves.
CS Gaynor: I’m confused.
ARTHUR: Well the DVO when it went to court
CS Gaynor: The actual DVO, so the court’s changed it.
ARTHUR: The application
CS Gaynor: Who approved the application?
ARTHUR: They changed it and took the Heilbronns’ off it. Left Michael on it, ourselves and
Isabella because she’d been hurt by her father squeezing her.
CS Gaynor: So who was left on it? Isabella?
ARTHUR: Isabella, ourselves
CS Gaynor: Daughter Cassie?
ARTHUR: Yep. Now the next one. This is the next day, that was on the 8th October 2011.
HEATHER: 14/10/2011 was the day I remember like it was
CS Gaynor: My job to be child protection, to work on the situation with somebody else needs to be relevant
CS Gaynor: OK MY information needs to be about the children.
ARTHUR: Yes, sure. Sure. Then on that afternoon they accused of us setting Michael up.
Have you got it the details?
HEATHER: That was 30th September 2011
ARTHUR: 30TH September 2011.
CS Gaynor: Can we go backwards?
HEATHER: The girls had been saying that things about their father sexually abusing them.
ARTHUR: So we decided what we best to ask him before, you know. Let the girls confront
him. Go on Heather.
HEATHER: He arrived and my daughter just said “The girls have been saying things and we
want to know, if it’s true with that Bronte and Isabella took themselves outside
and Bronte called out “Now don’t you start getting angry Daddy.”
ARTHUR: And they did confirm that he had been interfering with them both by the way.
CS Gaynor: They said that
CS Gaynor: What did they say?
ARTHUR: They said yes in front of their mother, in front of their father and ourselves.
CS Gaynor: So you still didn’t make a statement did you?
ARTHUR: They had been asked plenty of times
CS Gaynor: Did you take this information to the police
CS Gaynor: Why Not?
ARTHUR: That’s quite obvious. Well
CS Gaynor: I can’t override police, that’s a criminal action.
HEATHER: What part can you be involved in no matter what you are supposed to do is hard. Yes, that was stupid. Looking behind we should’ve done this we should’ve done that, we should’ve done something else. We just don’t know.
CS Gaynor: Yes Absolutely, Absolutely. Now have you been involved in any court decisions?
CS Gaynor: So the children made a statement and mind you the children didn’t make this
statement. All they said was “yes”. It was the parent that made the statement.
ARTHUR: No. They were asked the question? “Has Daddy been doing naughty things to you?”
CS Gaynor: But they didn’t make the statement.
CS Gaynor: Because you have already told us, so once again it is a criminal action. Police need to be involved at the time of that. Any time that somebody has been sexually harmed or sexual predicated on, it is a criminal offence, if it has been identified by police as criminal offence. Alright go on. I just got to make you understand. I’ve got to because I can’t do the criminal actions as well.
ARTHUR: That’s right. I don’t expect you to Maam.
CS Gaynor: Alright?
ARTHUR: That’s for sure.
CS Gaynor: I can’t take over the role of police
ARTHUR: Any how the fact of the matter is that they were asked if Daddy was doing it and they said “yes” and they ran out to play and as they were leaving Bronte said “Daddy don’t get angry again.
HEATHER: He is always angry. That’s all they would call him. They would call him angry, mean, nasty
ARTHUR: So then Michael. I said to Michael “This is pretty serious.” Michael said “Oh I will ring the police.” Good. So he got out his mobile phone he pressed the button and he went straight to some police, he never went through a switchboard.
CS: Gaynor Yep.
ARTHUR: And um I don’t know what was said on the phone, of course. And then we took the girls down the back down the back paddock under the mango trees, we have five acres out there. We didn’t want them involved in this.
CS Gaynor: What ward do you live.
ARTHUR: Rasmussen, 1155 Riverway Drive, two doors up from the Community Centre.
CS: Gaynor: Yes Yes Yes
ARTHUR: And um, then Michael came down and got them. He didn’t take them did he?
He didn’t take them with him he decided to leave them there. I said to Michael.
You know, he has always been made welcome to our place; we have never had a dispute with him.
CS Gaynor: Mm Mm
ARTHUR: I said to him “These are serious allegations Michael, it might be better if you leave the kids until you sort this out.” He said “yes OK” and he did, so they stayed there on that occasion and then
HEATHER: Every time he comes to the place for an access visit Bronte used to, when she knew that Daddy was coming that afternoon, just sit and stare and you couldn’t sort of have contact with her.
CS Gaynor: How long have the children been living with you?
ARTHUR: They are happy with us now. The court gave the children to the father. The father accused the mother of coaching and also issued a statement saying that the mother had sent the father a text on the Saturday afternoon we are talking about, “Come on over honey, the girls can’t wait to see you.” Now, that never happened. We’ve got a transcript from Telstra of all the texts sent from our daughter’s phone on that day and that was not in it, so it didn’t happen but he got custody on part of that.
HEATHER: So these girls are living with the father that has been abusing them.
CS Gaynor: How long have the girls been living with the father?
HEATHER: 9th December 2011. From that moment on they have just seen their mother under supervision and they have just told every supervisor who has been with them telling them Daddy is still doing things to them.
CS Gaynor: And that information is directly reported when they make those comments.
ARTHUR: No we haven’t been putting it in because nobody will talk to us.
CS Gaynor: No, I’m talking about the mother because obviously that is first hand information at time of contact and things like that.
ARTHUR: The day after. You’d better get your diary out that day at the markets. These are pretty relevant. Comments these little kids have made.
HEATHER: 2 days after the court gave the girls to Michael.
ARTHUR: Have you got the right date?
HEATHER: Two days after the court gave the girls to Michael
CS Gaynor: After the 9th of the 12th?
HEATHER: Yes, on the 11/12 I was in town and the girls were there at the markets.
ARTHUR: We are members of Rotary; by the way, we’re volunteers for Rotary and they run the markets so we’re all down with them.
HEATHER: We were in there, Cassie was tickling the girls and the girls said “Mummy you’ve got to promise not to tickle us, because you are tickling us too much.” And she said “Ah, I can’t promise because you got to keep a promise when you make it. She said and “Isabella” said “well Daddy doesn’t keep his promise, because he is still touching our privates.” Two days after custody.
CS Gaynor: What does the mother do about that information?
ARTHUR: I don’t know.
HEATHER: She’s lost the children, because they said she was coaching and here they are. It has come out two days later saying thing to anybody.
ARTHUR: I have a copy of all the texts. It’s there if you’re interested. If you’d like to photocopy them. It’s not relevant. There’s no text there.
CS Gaynor: Nothing to do with Child Protection stuff on there. Anyone making complaints?
CS Gaynor: What about Mum? Mum’s hearing all this information, or she makes any comments.
ARTHUR: I know she didn’t report a lot of these disclosures directly after she had the children taken from her because she was accused of coaching and she didn’t know what to do.
CS Gaynor: She should be providing it to the authorities at the time.
HEATHER: Yes, we thought that too, because on 24th January.
CS Gaynor: Is it reported to the courts.
ARTHUR: We don’t know we haven’t seen it.
CS Gaynor: That’s up to her and not for you to be involved.
HEATHER: On the 24th January the last year.
CS Gaynor: Yep
HEATHER: The girls were over for an access visit, Michael had appointed himself Supervisor.
CS Gaynor: With Mum? Access visit?
HEATHER: Yes, Michael as the supervisor.
CS Gaynor: Right. Was it out at your place?
HEATHER: It was at our place. Isabella was swimming with the mother and she revealed something to her mother and she dirtied her pants in the pool, so Cassie took the girls up for a shower and when Isabella had got dressed she came running out and jumped up on the lounge and her genital area was red to the point of near bleeding.
ARTHUR: And I was sitting next to the father and little Isabella was in between us and I said to the father (She didn’t have her pants on). I said to the father “Michael we’ve got a problem here, look at this” and he said “No” and he got all. He went all funny didn’t he?
ARTHUR: He got up, walked around and sat down.
HEATHER: He got up and sat down.
ARTHUR: And I begged him and the mother which their supposed to do, to take Isabella to the doctor.
CS Gaynor: Mm Mm
HEATHER: He flatly refused.
ARTHUR: He flatly refused.
CS Gaynor: Do you know if he took the child after the access?
HEATHER: No. He wouldn’t take them to a doctor.
NEVILLE: How old are the children?
HEATHER: They’d just turned five.
CS Gaynor: Um. So you don’t know if he took the child to the doctor?
HEATHER: He said they didn’t need to go.
CS Gaynor: Yep
HEATHER: Those were his words “she doesn’t need to go.”
ARTHUR: What date was that?
HEATHER: 24th January. There’s so many things that the girls have said that are of a sexual nature. Then my daughter on the 15th January, we all went to the movies together and the girls weren’t happy and so she calmly said to Michael “the girls aren’t happy we need to talk about it.” She put the girls in the car so it wasn’t as though she was cross and he just started shouting you just need to sort yourself out. She said “what do you mean?” “You know what I mean.” He jumped into the car, slammed the door. He didn’t have his seat belt on. Backed the car back and just missed another car coming into the parking area. He’s supposed to have done things. He’s not interested in the girls’ welfare or anything.
CS Gaynor: And that’s something Mum needs to take up with the courts as well. Do they do mediation, do you know?
ARTHUR: They did. They started going to Relationships Australia in 2009. I think the father went twice and said it wasn’t relevant and refused to return.
CS Gaynor: And that’s before the court?
ARTHUR: That’s before they broke up.
HEATHER: That was two years before they broke up.
CS Gaynor: It normally happens before they go to court.
HEATHER: Apparently it was something special, but I don’t really know.
HEATHER: Alright there is something on the 10th January that Isabella was crying. She had soiled her pants again in swimmers again, but she wasn’t crying because of what Daddy had done that but he had told them they could have a sleep over and then he said they couldn’t. You know, they could stay with Mummy for the night and he said they couldn’t. That was the 10th January.
18th January Bronte told us that Daddy doesn’t like your family Mummy and we shouldn’t either.
CS Gaynor: So once again, that’s all information that Mum should be providing.
ARTHUR: But mother wasn’t there
HEATHER: Oh she was. She told Mummy in front of us.
ARTHUR: She said it to me too.
HEATHER; Well she did, she told her in the front of us. Then after dinner they played their recorder to sexual songs.
CS Gaynor: What does that mean?
HEATHER: Well, their father playing these sexual songs on his phone while the girls were playing their recorder. They were sexual tunes.
CS Gaynor: What songs?
HEATHER: Oh I can’t remember but they were songs the girls shouldn’t even be listening to. Not five year olds.
ARTHUR: Our dates might jump around a little bit. We both keep separate diaries. On the 12th January um I had the caravan serviced and I backed it into the shed and our pool has a gate there and a gate here and there’s a fence here that’s overlapped and you can walk in there and nobody knows you’re there. Cassie and the girls were sitting there facing towards this way, towards the house and after I backed the caravan in I could hear them in the pool so I thought I would go around and give them a fright so I came around and I am leaning against the fence and the girls had just come back from Brisbane with their father and this was at 3 o’clock in the afternoon and Cassie said “You look tired Isabella, did you have a sleep before you come over.” She said “yes, Bronte did but I had to go into Daddy’s bedroom and play with his privates and he played with mine.” And I just stood there. I just could not believe what I was hearing. Then Bronte came over she was on this floaty thing and the mother said to Bronte. “Bronte did you have a sleep before you came over today?” Bronte said “Yes, I did but Isabella didn’t she had to go into Daddy’s room”. That was on the 12th. And if you care to visit our home it’s well worth a look. Oops, sorry Nev. We’ve got a long hallway and the girl’s bedroom was there, the mother’s bedroom was there. There’s a hallway right up here, the kitchen’s there and there’s a lounge here and my spot’s in that corner and the TVs there and I watch the news.
CS Gaynor: Yes
ARTHUR: Anyhow last thing at night it was my job to tell them a story when they went to bed.
CS Gaynor: Mm Mm
ARTHUR: And we told them the story, there’s bed there, and bed there and fan there. They’ve got all their pictures around the wall. I tell them a story we give them a kiss and walk out and close the door then we would come out here. Then when Cassie was ready to go to bed she would go to bed.
I get up at 5 o’clock every morning and I sit there watching the news and when those little girls woke up they’d open their door and they would peek out and then go back in and in a couple of minutes would come flying down the hallway and snuggle into me one each side and then they’d say “Pop, the boring news and they knew they had five minutes. I could watch the news for five minutes, then have to go to 502 and that was ha ha.
HEATHER: No Bronte wanted
HEATHER: I can’t remember that one.
CS Gaynor: That’s children’s shows?
ARTHUR: Yes, and that’s what they did so they were never alone with their mother while they were there and they claim she was coaching them and they we all spent our time there.
HEATHER: The mother was supposed to be coaching the children and yet she never, she never would say anything derogatory about the father. Ever, even when she was down about something he said to her.
CS Gaynor: In all these circumstances were the girls Mum was there. I would hope and assume that the mother has given notice.
ARTHUR: I doubt it very much because she already lost the kids and they said if she ever coaches again or puts in false statements.
CS Gaynor: Why wouldn’t she, if they were not false?
ARTHUR: Of course they’re not false, I was there. She’s dead scared. The Heilbronns’ have been
CS Gaynor: Have you been into the police with her.
ARTHUR: No I haven’t been to the police. I’ve been to the police on many occasions.
CS Gaynor: ?
ARTHUR: No. No.
CS Gaynor: You said as well the mother was sitting there with the children.
HEATHER: That afternoon when Isabella came and sat on the chair and jumped on the chair without any pants, I went through to the bedroom and Bronte was in the bedroom getting dressed after she had a shower and I just said to her “Um, goodness Isabella’s “tushka” they used to call it “tushka”
CS Gaynor: Mm Mm
HEATHER: looks really sore” and she said “that’s what happens when Daddy rubs us too hard there with his penis”
CS Gaynor: Do you know if the children have been interviewed by the police?
ARTHUR: Ah, many times I believe. The event of 15th January.
HEATHER: Isabella said that she didn’t want to stay with Daddy anymore as he is just too angry.
ARTHUR: We all have a breakfast when they come over, Michael and everybody.
CS Gaynor: So this is when Dad has had the children?
ARTHUR: Yes, at our place.
GS Gaynor: Mm Mm.
ARTHUR: The Aunties and Uncles and cousins was there and it was said in front of Michael that he was too angry all the time. Michael was furious and became withdrawn.
On the 4th January I offered to discuss Michael’s problems with him, he has severe behavioral problems. Um, but he never mentioned it, he just ignored it. On the 19th January 2012 during access the girls again complained of sexual interference by Daddy. He takes each one of us into the bedroom to play with his penis and he plays with mine..
CS Gaynor: And who did the children say this to?
ARTHUR: Me. I have kept the diaries there. I’ve typed up to make it easy to.
CS Gaynor: What date was that?
ARTHUR: 19TH January.
CS Gaynor: Yep.
ARTHUR: On the 20th January I phone the Sexual Abuse Hotline in Brisbane, as I didn’t know what to do and I was referred to Relationships Australia. (Relationships Australia where are we?) We met with um Matthew Power out there.
CS Gaynor: Who’s Matthew Power?
ARTHUR: You needed that? He’s the, well when I rang the Sexual Abuse Hotline in Brisbane they referred me to Matthew Power in Thuringowa.
CS Gaynor: That’s OK. I’m glad you rang Sexual Abuse but I’m still just interested in the girls not yours.
ARTHUR: No No, it was about the kids. We reported this sexual abuse to Matthew Power.
CS Gaynor: And what did he say?
ARTHUR: I’ve got to notify the authorities and they will be in touch with you but they never ever have. Now whether he notified the authorities or not I don’t know but he seemed a pretty genuine sort of a fellow and very concerned.
CS Gaynor: Yes essential. That was a good response. Um, what date was that? Did you say that was last year?
ARTHUR: No No
HEATHER: 20th January
ARTHUR: Just let me look at the papers so that we get it right.
CS Gaynor: It was the 19th?
ARTHUR: Yes. Got it yes.
CS Gaynor: January?
ARTHUR: Yes, rang Brisbane for appointment. That was on the 20th January I rang.
CS Gaynor: Good. That’s alright I was looking at the same.
ARTHUR: I think it was three days later.
CS Gaynor: Three days later?
CS Gaynor: Anything else after that time?
ARTHUR: Yes.HEATHER: There’s many times we’ve heard the girls say that Daddy says “Mummy doesn’t want them anymore, Mummy doesn’t love them anymore.” You know that sort of thing. They used to say that often. And on the 3rd of October we were at our daughter’s birthday party.
CS Gaynor: What date was that?
ARTHUR: 3RD October.
HEATHER: 3rd October last year.
CS Gaynor: Yes
HEATHER: Our daughter’s birthday party where Mum was under supervision and were all sitting around the table Isabella said “that Daddy said Bronte is a liar because he plays with our vagina but she’s not a liar, because he does it all the time”. And then she said. After a little while she said “Oh Daddy’s going to be very angry now Mummy.”
ARTHUR: There six at the birthday party.
CS Gaynor: Is that all?
ARTHUR: I believe there were five signed statements went into the police and none of us have been interviewed about it.
24th January Isabella phoned her Mother and wanted to meet her at the school gate as she had something important to tell her. Cassie at that stage could not go to the school and did not have Michael’s approval. Cassie told Isabella she would be seeing her that afternoon. They met at the Willows where Michael allowed the girls to shop for school bags because the girls didn’t have any. Heather was at the centre. Michael went to our place without the girls. When they arrived they bought dinner which we all shared including Michael. Cassie took the girls for a swim and Isabella dirtied her pants again. This has happened several times since she has been in the care of the father and she was toilet trained two years before.
CS Gaynor: Do you know if the children have been to get any psychological treatment?
CS Gaynor: Do you know?
CS Gaynor: He came to my place after the court order
ARTHUR: No. I do know. He came to my place. No I don’t know it wasn’t as far as I know
HEATHER: our place
ARTHUR: 28TH January will answer this question. Michael phoned to say he wanted to see me. I invited him over assuming that he wanted to discuss his depression. He suffers from severe depression. But to my surprise he arrived with a cold beer and forty odd pages of the order and reasoning of F.M. Coker
CS Gaynor: 28th January
ARTHUR: January 2012
CS Gaynor: Now you understand I need to know the role on the stuff about the children?
ARTHUR: Yes. OK
CS Gaynor: Everyday is not going to be about the children though.
ARTHUR: No No. He stayed for over an hour denigrating all the medical professionals, doctors, psychologists, pediatricians and counselors which the girls had visited under the advice from police and Child Safety. The visit was clearly an attempt to get me to criticize Justice Coker’s ruling which I refused to do. We accepted because he made that rule and you have to accept it. I suggested that he and Cassie should take the girls to a psychologist to help them get over the break up. Michael looked at me with a look I have never seen anybody with it like it before and said “I can assure you that the girls will not be seeing a psychiatrist.” He said “I can assure you, psychologist sorry, that Cassie will never ever get those girls again. I said “Michael” and he just jumped into the car and took off. Now that was me suggesting to him, I didn’t push the point that the girls should have help and he flatly refused.
HEATHER: Something 23rd January. I meant June sorry.
ARTHUR: Oh no I’ve got some more here. That night after Michael left the mother got a phone call saying all access had been stopped. The lot, from everybody, uncles, cousins, aunties, ourselves, he stopped all access and we haven’t had access since, so those little girls have been in a hostage situation since 5th February 2012. It’s over twelve months now. Heather and I went round on the Sunday morning, the morning after for an access visit and he let us in. OK and the girls were hiding in the bedroom, we went and found them and brought them out and they were very happy to see us.
CS Gaynor: I thought you hadn’t seen them?
ARTHUR: No this is the day after he stopped access
CS Gaynor: Yes
ARTHUR: he stopped access to the girls.
CS Gaynor: Yes
ARTHUR: It was on 5th February 2012.
HEATHER: 5th February
ARTHUR: Sorry, 5TH February, 2012. So we went around Sunday morning, Heather was inside and he called me outside and started asking questions and I made some statements to which I were truthful. One was that I said that with the Child Sexual Abuse it’s very hard to know what’s happening and we’ve been doing research and I said its only four or five per cent of four and five years old who report these findings so he put that into an affidavit against me. So that’s where I got the information from. He ticked the boxes of what’s relevant and all those things are there if you want it. That’s in relation to the girls. (Handing over an information sheet from Bravehearts).
CS Gaynor: Yes Yes that’s your interpretation of what’s wrong with them, is that right?
ARTHUR: Yes. But that’s what’s happening to the girls with their behavior.
CS Gaynor: Right.
ARTHUR: And we haven’t had access since and ah, as I say we went to the police on so many occasions.
CS Gaynor: Nothing else should be relevant from here because you haven’t had any other access with the children.
HEATHER: They’ve been under supervision, court approved supervisors.
CS Gaynor: Court ordered supervisors.
HEATHER: Yes. The court ordered supervisors. Yes, from I think it was about the 3rd or it might have been 1st April, so they have only ever been supervised.
CS Gaynor: Who’s that with? Family?
ARTHUR: Yes, court ordered yes. The court approved supervisors.
CS Gaynor: Court ordered to extended family is that right?
ARTHUR: No no
CS Gaynor: Their Mum?
HEATHER: Their Mum, with the supervisors they might come over to our place, was coming over to our place occasionally.
CS Gaynor: Yes
HEATHER: Not all the time. Maybe we would go over there to their place if, like Cassie’s place.
CS Gaynor: Sorry, was that from 3rd or 4th.
CS Gaynor: Sorry, go on
HEATHER: So we’ve sort of seen them but it’s always been under supervision
CPS Gaynor: Yes
HEATHER: Then on the 9th October it was just all stopped again and Cassie only sees the girls. No phone contact. Nothing. Only sees the girls at Relationship Australia for an hour and three quarters every Sunday afternoon.
ARTHUR: I’ve got a couple of other things here. 2nd April 2012 we went to Ross River Park with them and the supervisor for a picnic. I took the pups down for the kids to play with and Bronte said “Pop?” (Hang on while I get this). Bronte asked “Can we come home with you and Nan, Pop.” I said “Dad will bring you back one day”. Bronte replied “We don’t want to live with Daddy, he makes us cry all the time and he’s always angry.” I replied “He would only get angry when you are naughty.” Bronte said “No Pop, he’s angry all the time and does naughty things to us.” That was on ah, 2nd April 2012 in front of the supervisors.
CS: Gaynor: Mm
HEATHER: The supervision must have started on the 1st April.
ARTHUR: From the 10th of June we had a trampoline and swings at home we brought the girls and Cassie moved into a home in (the address, what was the number?)
HEATHER: It’s Eyre Street.
ARTHUR: Eyre Street, North Ward. I loaded these swings up and took them around and put them in the back yard.
GS Gaynor: Mm
ARTHUR: And Rae Greaves was the supervisor that day. I don’t know whether you know Rae or not, um, but she was the supervisor. I relocated the swings and the trampoline from our home to Cassie’s home. When I was leaving I said “Have fun on your swings and trampoline.” Bronte whispered which was said in front of Rae Greaves. Bronte and Isabella said “that Daddy had told them they would never be allowed to stay at Mummy’s house again.” I said “That may change, he may change his mind.” They then said “They have to go to Aunty Sheree’s house tomorrow.” the 11th, yes school holidays because “Daddy said Mummy didn’t want us anymore.” I assured them, this is in front of their mother and the supervisor; I assured them that Mummy, Poppy, Nana and all our friends and relatives wanted to see them as much as we could.
HEATHER: On 24th, 23rd June I was at the school being a teach aid.
CS Gaynor: Any circumstances where the supervisors think the children are at risk are certainly advised of all the services.
HEATHER: Yes, well I
ARTHUR: We can’t be sure, no.
CS Gaynor: Yes, go on.
HEATHER: I was ready to go and I said to both girls to say goodbye and Isabella stood up and she goes. She said “Tomorrow’s mummy day, and then the next day because tomorrow was Friday, Saturday they used to have access with Relationships Australia and then all day Sunday. Tomorrow’s mummy day, the next day is mummy day. Then she said “The only good days are mummy days.”
CS Gaynor: What date is that?
ARTHUR: You’ve got no idea what is happening with these kids. (Heather was crying).
CS Gaynor: It’s alright do you need time out?
HEATHER: 23RD June
ARTHUR: The things they are saying, you couldn’t coach them if they had not experienced what they’re saying. They not have the faintest idea.
On 8th March we visited Ewan Jones office regards to disclosures and been unable to talk to anybody.
On 12th March Matthew from Mr. Jones office rang and advised us to contact Stephen Cannon senior intake Officer at Child Safety on 49777900
On 15th March we rang Mr. Cannon’s office and we were assured that we would be contacted for an appointment. It never ever happened. Never.
CS Gaynor: You do know now that you can make contact with us. Where intake see it you don’t need that.
ARTHUR: That’s your number there.
CS Gaynor: Yes, you need to make contact me on the 1300 number and provide us with
Information any time. And if you need to walk in for advice and information I’m happy to take that, as long as it is current information because historically information we have already been provided with and then we’ve got all those so um any new information we will take.
NEVILLE: They’ve already been told the information you have just said. I’m pretty
CS Gaynor: I’ve got to converse.
NEVILLE: Yes, I have been with family relationships for forty years.
CS Gaynor: Then you would know, you would know that anybody you have spoken to is
Provided with same. We would like to say we don’t tape the information we don’t, if they pull in another person we will always say you need to advise this information. As a justice body that is what we are required to do and we will always.
ARTHUR: What date were we up to?
CS Gaynor: Um lots of dates backwards and forwards. 23/06/2012 and that’s being
Supervised from 15th.
HEATHER: It was too close 6/09, 11th
CS Gaynor: 1st November?
CS Gaynor: In context.
ARTHUR: The father prevented the mother from going to the school, she was teacher’s
Aide as other parents, one day a week I think it was.
HEATHER: That’s after 9th October.
ARTHUR: And she was in the classroom with all the other mothers and the father claimed
That the mother was coaching the girls during the, you know this time in the class where the teacher is supervising and stopped her from going and then they made her go at 9.10am into class after the school had started and he still claimed they were coaching inside the class room and he stopped that. And then my wife said well these little girls have to have contact with family so she got in touch with the Headmaster and said “Well look these girls blaa blaa blaa can I come and take over the place so the girls can have contact with the children and the father would not allow it. Is that normal?
CPS Gaynor: What, I think that it would’ve been up to the school. Education Queensland run
their own policy so it would be up to them if they were willing to let it happen.
ARTHUR: We got a letter from him
HEATHER: It just said we could in another class.
ARTHUR: The Headmaster he could’ve.
CS Gaynor: An aide teacher.
HEATHER: The class has a teacher’s aide.
CS Gaynor: So he just goes up as a parent. I think the children’s education is done under
their own policy so it’s obviously they made the decision under their own policy.
ARTHUR: No. I don’t think so; we had a letter from them that said “The school does not
have a problem with the grandmother attending.
HEATHER: But he’s the one that stopped it.
CS Gaynor: Well, as far as I know, because you weren’t in the class with just them either.
ARTHUR: With the mother, yes
HEATHER: We just sit around and talk to the children and then they change.
CS Gaynor: I would assume they would not make indication on their own ground.
ARTHUR: All we wanted to do was keep contact with the kids.
HEATHER: It was nothing like that.
CS Gaynor: They would have to have some sort of order of some kind. But understand we’re
State, we’re not Federal so I don’t know the Federal court rules in things like
That. They would have to get a court rule something in policy.
ARTHUR: This is a statement I put into the police. It is about a disclosure. Do you want me to read it out? They’ve never been back to me. It’s about the girls.
CS Gaynor: But you have given them your information, we can’t keep on getting information like that because that is criminal. We work on risk, we don’t work on that.
ARTHUR: I was riding up the road. I ride the push bike every morning. Up along Riverway Drive and I was coming back and here was with the car with the two little girls in the back of it. It was locked up in full sunshine and the father was in shopping and I tried to get in the car and I couldn’t, it was locked. The motor wasn’t running.
CS Gaynor: These were your little girls?
ARTHUR: Yes. No not that one, that is just an example. So I waited there until the father
came out and he was furious. He um
CS Gaynor: What was the time frame?
HEATHER: We don’t really know.
ARTHUR: Well, it was.
HEATHER: He rode up and they were in the car.
CS Gaynor: When was that?
ARTHUR: That was on 15th October, 2012. Oh no no no sorry about that I’ve got the wrong
one there. That was the one you didn’t want to hear about.
HEATHER: That was after that.
CS Gaynor: If the police have every criminal information in relation about the children we will get it.
ARTHUR: You haven’t got it.
(There was laughter about something I couldn’t understand what was said)
ARTHUR: OK, Heather was um, went up to the chemist for a prescription and she arrives
up there and there’s the little girls in the car again, full sunshine and didn’t know
where Michael was, so Heather went into the chemist shop and Michael’s in the
Chemist shop. So, she said “Do you mind if I say hello to the girls?” in front of
everybody in the chemist shop. He said “yer, yer alright.” So she went out and
she’s talking to the girls.
HEATHER: Now, I like to take over from there because I was talking to the girls in the back
of the car.
CS Gaynor: Mm Mm
HEATHER: I’m this way and the girls there and the door’s open behind me and we were
chatting away and they were very excited to see me and Isabella was talking and she writes a diary. She’s a very clever little girl and she’s telling me all about her tummy and eye drops and she couldn’t spell it, I can’t remember it now. That’s
right, she had just drawn a drop, eye drop and we were chatting away and the next thing they both stopped and they just go like this. (indicating that the girls were looking up and then tooking into their laps).
CS Gaynor: Mm Mm
HEATHER: And I knew Michael was standing behind me and they were scared to talk to me.
ARTHUR: When I was up at the bakery at the shopping centre and they were locked in the
car and I tried to get in there.
HEATHER: They were laughing and carrying on.
ARTHUR: When he came out he just flew into a rage, opened the door and slammed it and he wouldn’t even allow me to say hello. That’s not good.
HEATHER: He’s got them like. He’s got nobody he has to answer to.
CS Gaynor: Well I guess the children are at a questionable age, six.
HEATHER: Yes. Several months ago. I mean they both go to school.
CS Gaynor: So you’ve got either of the children at school, but the schools have the policies
around what is appropriate and what’s not appropriate about that so they
certainly look for any change of behaviors and things like that. Certainly they
have that policy there. It’s not under our policy, but they certainly have a policy
that making sure they adhere.
HEATHER: I feel they like school, they really love it because they’re away from the angry
ARTHUR: The father has serious behavior and mental problems and I have a letter here
from his grandmother she wrote me if you wish to read it.
HEATHER: This is back in.
CS Gaynor: Is this a medical person or somebody just saying something.
ARTHUR: His grandmother telling me.
CS Gaynor: Why is his grandmother writing?
ARTHUR; Because she is concerned about him if you read it and every week after they got
married for months his mother would ring me and say “Please, look after
Michael. Could you get him to contact me?” And I would
CS Gaynor: Patricia
ARTHUR: That’s his mother. His mother’s a psychopath, schizophrenically I believe.
HEATHER: Goodness knows, his father was habitual.
CS Gaynor: So how does that make him a schizophrenic?
ARTHUR: I didn’t suggest that no. I just asked you to read the letter.
CS Gaynor: But you said he’s got mental health issues.
ARTHUR: Well, he has
HEATHER: Because he complains all the time about having depression and other stuff he
brings up. In fairness to that because he was in a bad accident at six.
CS Gaynor: So this is about he and his Mum.
HEATHER: It’s mainly about his health.
ARTHUR: Mainly about his behavior, deserting his mother.
HEATHER: And how could he treat his mother this way.
ARTHUR: She said “That the worst mother in the world deserves better treatment than he
gives her. And these are things I have observed. I knew there were problems in
the family Christmas 2010 because they came around and opened up the
presents and there was just silence. The girls were very jaded. They opened
their presents, there was no excitement and when they left he went and jumped
in the car and drove off. And I said to my daughter “Is everything alright.” Her
eyes just filled with tears and she said “Yes”
On the 20th November
CS Gaynor: Going backwards
ARTHUR: No, we’re on Michael’s depression and his disclosures he has given me.
HEATHER: He is aware and knows about them.
ARTHUR: Yes he does.
CS Gaynor: I want to know about the children, I don’t want to know about him. I wantabout the girls.
ARTHUR: Well, the risk, if you listen, to the girls could be great. Ah. Beg your pardon?
On 20/11 we were supervising, and this was before he got the children,
He got them on 7th December. So it was before he got the children
through the court. It was on 20th November, it was a Sunday and we
went down to the beach and we let them run free which we stayed
right away from them.
CS Gaynor: When was this?
CS Gaynor: Mm Mm
ARTHUR: And then we went back to Lolly Pops at the Main Central and we sat well away
Having a cup of coffee and they were playing and they came over and sat down.
I noticed Michael was crying, and he was white and shaky and the girls just
closed down completely. I never said anything, I just watched and about ten
minutes later things seem to smooth out and ah I just never said a word to him.
On 4th January it was the girls’ birthday party with approximately 40 children
there and adults. The father didn’t get involved at all in conversation with the
guests or take part in any proceedings of the party what so ever. He went inside
after the barbecue was cooked and appeared pale, trembling and was crying and
looked and he was distant, His manner was very distant. When I asked him
what the matter was he said he was suffering from severe depression and had
done for years. He would not eat. After about twenty minutes, because I sat
there and talked to him, Michael settled down and he did come out and eat
some of the food, but he still did not mix with the guests or any of the friends.
CS Gaynor: May I ask you something? Did the Mum make any comment about this in the
ARTHUR: I have no idea, I haven’t seen them.
HEATHER: I don’t know. I don’t know what’s in her affidavits or anything.
CS Gaynor: So you don’t know anything about that. But she lives in the home with you and
You don’t know anything about that.
ARTHUR: She moved house. She was in our home at the time, yes.
CS Gaynor: And you don’t know if she has made any comments about it.
ARTHUR: The solicitor told us that we have to be independent of each other, that we can’t
On 8th January access visit by Mick and the girls, he stayed very quiet and
strained distant. He accepted a soft drink but we could not connect with him at
On 10th January during another visit Michael again he said he suffered from
depression and has done for years. I offered my sympathy and told Mick I was
available any time he wanted to come to talk to me, if he wanted to talk about
his problems. He said “Thank you that would be good.”
On 17th January Mick again was very distant but accepted a glass of wine after
Dinner and left with a blank look on his face without saying “goodbye” or “thank
22nd January Mick very jubilant and bragging about how good it was to be single
again and how much he was enjoying life at present. This
behavior seemed to be in stark contradiction to how he normally behaved.
We’ve never seen him on such a high with his emotions ever. The twins barely
spoke to him during the visit and were overly subdued.
24th January Mick visited with the girls and very happy until Isabella had a
shower after swimming. I think you’ve got some of this. She had no pants on
yer. Doesn’t need to go to a doctor, his attitude changed and the next thing he
became very aggressive, irritated and edgy. He could not keep still, kept on
getting up until he left.
28th January, we’ve discussed this. When Mick turned up I thought he was going
to talk about his depression, but he didn’t. I was standing at the front gate with
Mr. Manser on the, this is 3rd October 2012
CS Gaynor: Mm Mm
ARTHUR: I was standing at the front gate with Mr. Manser who’s a sheet metal worker
And Michael drove past with the girls on the way to school. He gave me the
wave and speeded up in front of the girls.
These are a few of the worst ones.
HEATHER: I might add that he comes out (2010) especially when we have friends there,
2011 we had friends there but I also had the girls while he was there. Michael
didn’t ever take notice of the girls while they opened up their Christmas
CS Gaynor: Mm Mm
HEATHER: More significantly the girls never went near him and even when he was
supervised. He used to come to our place he would walk in with his phone,
either playing on his phone or talking on his phone. Um he’d take a beer out of
ARTHUR: He wouldn’t ask he would just go and get it
HEATHER: If it wasn’t to his liking he would just complain about the brand of the beer, go
and sit in a corner in front of the TV.
ARTHUR: And to this day we’ve never been rude to him, ever. We wanted the thing to
CS Gaynor: Alright, is that it?
ARTHUR: Yes basically. I’ve got a couple of questions. You say you don’t give out
Information and I probably accept, I will accept. Did the Heilbronns’ contact
HEATHER: She can’t tell us anything.
CS Gaynor: If the Heilbronns’ asked me if you contacted us
ARTHUR: I know mm.
CS Gaynor: All information is confidential, so any information that we have is certainly not
Information for us to give. Alright.
HEATHER: See they threatened, the last thing they said as they walked out the door the
day they were at our place on 8th October, we’re going to Authorities and
you’re going to lose those children within a week.
ARTHUR: I tell you what he wasn’t far wrong.
HEATHER: Because she lost them.
CS Gaynor: Now with regard the information you gave me, like I said, you can contact
Records of Information used to be Freedom of Information is called the Record
of Information now. Um I think they would have a web site. It has to be
relevant for them to provide you with that information. The information that
you’re involved in. You’ve got that. It’s up to you if you want to get information
ARTHUR: Not really I just want these little girls looked after. Why are they still with him?
I even went as far as I could. You know I went and saw Ewan Jones, got onto
Matthew Lupi and never got a reply, so I wrote to the Commissioner for
Children in Brisbane. Once again, they’ve done nothing.
CS Gaynor: You don’t know.
ARTHUR: Well, they’re still there.
CS Gaynor: I mean, you don’t know what information has been provided and we don’t
accept that because the Agency doesn’t do that, because that would mean
identifying um information that has been received so we don’t get any of
that. So, all I can say to you is “all information we get is obvious on the system
it just stays on our system; we don’t do family law so the Federal system is
something that is not us. We work on the risk of the children. Federal work on
the court system. We don’t have any involvement, unless somebody wants to
go further and we become involved in investigations and things like that. Now
that’s something that’s done through the State and once again its around policy
and procedure so if anything um we have to um go by the information
received. We make our decisions according to our policy.
ARTHUR: So no doubt, as Child Safety we’ve given you the date.
CS Gaynor: Yes
ARTHUR: The children were with the father between. The father has been given too
much time if you consider our statements false.
CS Gaynor: No we don’t consider anybody’s statement is false. Everybody from community
members to services, organizations, departments provides us with information.
We take it as right. We don’t consider information as false.
ARTHUR: You see the father’s claimed the mother has mental problems.
CS Gaynor: Yes, but what I’m saying to you is we don’t work on, we don’t work the Federal
System, certainly State Government. The courts they’ve got all this information
ARTHUR: Well, they haven’t because nobody’s got it. Only you have got it now.
CS Gaynor: But you don’t know what has.
ARTHUR: Well there’s things in here that Mum hasn’t heard.
HEATHER: Well Mum most probably given them a whole lot, because the girls would say
lots of stuff in front of supervisors.
ARTHUR: Phone calls
HEATHER: Yes, we don’t know about.
CS Gaynor: A lot of stuff that has been said in front of Mum and a lot of stuff said in front
of Supervisors and things like that as well.
ARTHUR: There’s a lot of stuff in here that’s full of it of phone calls and things like that.
The girls rang up one afternoon, they start complaining. Phone call ends
Immediately. There’s no phone contact now. They are not allowed to ring us up.
CS Gaynor: Yes and I guess Mum as the other guardian of the children.
HEATHER: She’s not. She’s doesn’t have any say.
ARTHUR: He’s the sole parent at the moment.
CS Gaynor: OK so that’s the court ruling is it?
CS Gaynor: So you know what the court ruling is?
ARTHUR: Well, yes it was on 7th December.
HEATHER: 9th December Arth.
CS Gaynor: He’s the sole guardian of the children?
ARTHUR: Yes. That was F.M. Coker and we go back to court on 22nd January and in his
Judgment he said this is for a very short period, didn’t he?
HEATHER: No, because in February it was supposed to go back.
ARTHUR: Well February. 7th December to February. It was about eight weeks. No,
Eleven, it wasn’t twelve and it was supposed to go back and be resolved then.
CS Gaynor: Yep
ARTHUR: And, of course, the normal thing it has been adjourned right through.
HEATHER: Yes, it was supposed to with the order that both parents discuss the welfare of
the children. That’s something that has not been adhered to.
CS Gaynor: She’s not privy to the information In that. I mean, both parents have to take their information to court, they can’t just front up without. Don’t quote me I’ve no idea why it’s been put off until alater date, unless somebody is saying I’ve got some more information. You’ve got to get some more information, more information. That’s something, if anyone has got relevant information that it’s in court.
ARTHUR: That’s all very well but I think in November there was no information could go
Into the court after 20th November last year from memory. Something like that.
CS Gaynor: Well, as far as I know, all I know is both parents should have legal
ARTHUR: Well, the father is on $85.000 a year. He got legal aid. The mother’s bankrupt
and she can’t get it.
CS Gaynor: Well, I don’t know much about that. I honestly don’t know how they do that.
They have their. As far as I know Legal Aid have a set um rate as to what they
get involved. I don’t know about Mum why she doesn’t get it.
ARTHUR: They wouldn’t give it to her.
HEATHER: I think they wouldn’t give it to her in the first place because she was living with
CS Gaynor: Right. So if there’s any adjournments and things like that she’s got legal
representation, it maybe um, or maybe she should be going back and seeking
legal and seeking legal aid now.
ARTHUR: She can reapply can she?
CS Gaynor: Well, I don’t know. She’s in a different circumstances maybe she can. She
certainly needs to be conversant.
HEATHER: At the moment she cannot.
CS Gaynor: Like I said I’m not sure.
ARTHUR: What’s you name please?
CS Gaynor: Gaynor.
CPIU Gaynor: G A Y N O R.
ARTHUR: Ms Miss Mrs.
CS Gaynor: Ms. (Why was Ms Williams not given to us).
(There was general chit chat)
ARTHUR: Thanks for your time. That’s full of stuff that we haven’t discussed in relation to
the kids if you want it. You’re welcome to it.
CS Gaynor: Well, I think you have given me a good grounding on what’s there. It will
certainly be documented. Now use your other processes you’ve got for any
other information. Alright? Don’t feel you have to come in here to make
appointments or anything. You can call any time. Everybody here is an
Intake officer. If you get one of the other regional intakes, because we’re busy and it overflows everybody in the main office is an intake officer, alright?
ARTHUR: OK, we’ll come in certainly. Thank you for the advice. As far as
CS Gaynor: You call us, just give us call and that saves you distress.
ARTHUR: As far as the police goes.
CS Gaynor: That’s another matter, not us
ARTHUR: Hang on, as I say I was speaking with the Detective Senior Detective Sergeant
CS Gaynor: Yes
ARTHUR: And he will not talk to us, he said the case is finished.
CS Gaynor: He’s the big boss.
ARTHUR: Why won’t they interview us?
NEVILLE: If they suspect the children are in danger they should do something about it.
CS Gaynor: Well
(Once again there was a chit chat between CPIU, Neville and Arthur)
CS Gaynor: Do you know how many times they have interviewed the children? I’ve got
No idea and I’ve been involved or what the information has been taken and
what they’ve done. I guess you don’t know what’s been going on with
interviews and anything like that, but all I can say is that they’ve certainly,
they’re certainly their own um they’re totally separate to us because of their.
ARTHUR: What about all these statements that are going in and they don’t even bother
to ring up and confirm. On 2011 last year the cricket.
HEATHER: Oh, the 26th January last year.
ARTHUR: They went down to the cricket and Michael was playing cricket, that’s the father
and the girls were there with, I don’t know the girl’s name even, met her once
only, it wouldn’t know her if I fell over her.
HEATHER: She was a supervisor. She was there with Cass.
ARTHUR: Anyhow, it doesn’t matter. These kids are playing and she’s got twins too and
they’re playing and the two girls opened up and started telling tem what Daddy
does do them.
HEATHER: And this girl was a third year, she’s a um, what do you call it, an older, she’s in
Her early 30’s I think
CS Gaynor: Right
HEATHER: Third year medical student.
CS Gaynor: Oh, I see
ARTHUR: So she rang Child Safety, she rang the CPIU and they have never acknowledge
NEVILLE: Something wrong.
ARTHUR: Something wrong.
CS Gaynor: You don’t know.
ARTHUR: She said that she has never been contacted.
CS Gaynor: OK
ARTHUR: Never ever.
CS Gaynor: Alright I can’t give you any feedback on that I’m sorry. We don’t interact
when it comes to information.
ARTHUR; No I understand that, but she reported here and she reported it to police
and never had a response from either party.
CS Gaynor: Yep. We don’t provide feedback.
ARTHUR: Don’t you question them and make you know, get details.
CS Gaynor: We don’t provide feedback. If we’ve got enough information we don’t provide any feedback at all. Like I said becomes confidential. That’s as far as we can go. The Queensland policy is that any interview is that.
ARTHUR: I thought that what’s in the best interest for the children.
CS Gaynor; It’s absolutely is in the best interest for the children and we make sure it is.
ARTHUR: Thank you.
HEATHER: Thank you very much for your time.
CS Gaynor: Tut ta.
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